Lettre de Portugal a Suisse via France, 1850 - 1865

Bonjour,

Once again looking for your help.

I have observed letters from Portugal to Switzerland via France between 1855 and 1864 that I need some help with the Swiss postage due please.
From my small research I found the Postal convention of 25.11.1849 between France and Switzerland executed 1.7.1850 onwards (1) (2). This convention was valid until the convention of 22.3.1865 that entered execution on 1.10.1865 (3)

According to the conditions/accounting table for Lettres à destination de la Suisse, the Swiss post had to pay 40 centimes to France for transit for each 7,5g. 
However, the first rate letters have the postage due of 50 centimes. Does anyone know how to reach the value of 50 centimes? Was 10 centimes the internal Swiss domestic fee? I still did not found literature that could answer this question.



See below examples of different letters with different postage due values ... On the letters below the 25 Réis paid 7,5g up to the border between Spain and France ... the second letter was considered second rate ...








Any help is appreciated, thank you!

Ref:

(1) N. 2132 Décret relatif à la promulgation de la Convention de poste conclue, le 25 novembre 1849, entre la République française et la Confédération suisse. 3.5.1850
(2) Décret pour l'execution de la convention de poste conclue, le 25 novembre 1849, entre la France et la Suisse
(3) Exécution de la convention de poste conclue entre la France et la Suisse le 22 Mars 1865

Bonjour,

I will answer your question dear philatelist friend.

You have answered your own question.

The postal convention of 1849 from which you show us the extract indicates the rate for the French part in transit. This is the price that the Swiss post office will have to pay to the French post office (40 cts).

But you also have to pay the Swiss part which is, from 1862, 10 cts up to 10 grams and 20 cts beyond.



On the table above, you can see 2 columns (übrige Schweiz):

franco = franked
porto = not franked

Article 4 of the 1849 Convention states that postage does not have to be prepaid, so the normal postage rate applies.

There, I think your mystery is cleared up

Regards

Bonjour Jimef,

Thank you so much for that information. Was not aware of that table. 
I found the source, I read it and it says:

Posttaxengesetz vom 6. Hornung 1862
Aus diesem Entwurf ging das Posttaxengesetz vom 6. Hornung 1862 hervor. 
Art. 1 lautet: „Die Taxe für den Posttransport der inländischen Briefe im Innern der Schweiz ist ohne Unterschied der Entfernung, mit einziger Ausnahme des Art. 2, wie folgt festgesetzt:
a) für den frankierten Brief bis auf 10 g = 0.64 Loth an Gewicht, auf 10 Rp.;
b) für den unfrankierten Brief bis auf 10 g an Gewicht auf 15 Rp."


Art. 2 setzte für die Briefe bis 10 g und für eine Entfernung bis 2 Stunden in gerader Linie, eine Ortstaxe von 5 Rp. fest.


So, these letters are both unfranked, which means Porto. One hypothesis:

First rate up to 7,5g: 
• 0,40 Fr. for transit in France
• 5 Rp local rayon OR 15Rp for the bigger Schweiz, up to 10g
Total 45 or 65 

Second rate between 7,5g and 15g:
• 0,80 Fr. for transit in France
• 10 Rp local rayon OR 30Rp for the bigger Schweiz, up to 250g
Total 90 or 1,10

None of the cases matches the letters observed, but I'm not very good with mathematics ... 
PS: I believe the Swiss Franc had parity with the French Franc at this time.

What do you think?

Regards

You have not read correctly what I have written.

the 1849 postal convention states in article 4 that letters to switzerland or vice versa do not need to be franked; this indicates that taxation does not take this into account.

Whether a letter is franked or not is irrelevant in the case of a letter coming from France or in transit through France.

The 15 cts tax is only due for a letter sent within Switzerland and is therefore not applicable to a letter sent from abroad.
The local rate is also not applicable for letters in transit from France.

Therefore :

1st case : 40 cts for French transit and 10 cts for delivery to the destination for a letter weighing less than 10 grams;
2nd case : 80 cts for French transit and 20 cts for delivery to the destination for a letter weighing more than 10 grams.

Regards

Ok ... thank you!

Let me introduce another example. 

What do you think about the following letter sent from Portugal to Switzerland on 10.2.1855?
50 Réis, between 3/8 and 5/8 oz and 200 rapen postage due.

At the time 0,40 Fr was the French transit, in this case could be 0,80 or 1,20 .. also below the Swiss internal taxes at the time

After some clever calculations, I came to a conclusion.
I don't know if this one is the right one but I must be close to the truth.
It turns out that this period is one of the most complex in terms of pricing in Switzerland, as it is not yet standardised.
This is only valid if no other information contradicts my hypothesis.

Letter from 3/8oz to 5/8 oz (between 10 and 18 grams approximately), and I start from the high hypothesis of + 15 grams.

120 cts for French transit (40 cts per 7.5 grams)

As I don't know the transit route, I assume that the letter will be sent via Geneva, which seems the most logical for a letter coming from the Iberian Peninsula.
The postmen of the time used a tablature for the most common distances between cities as the partial copy below.



I have also chosen the higher rate because I assume that the office of exchange was not in Geneva itself, but at the border which is a little further away, hence I assume the two different rates.

You can see that the tax for the letter between Geneva and Fribourg is 15-17.5 Rappen,
or 52.5 Rappen for the 3rd weight step.
And this is where the subtlety comes in, because these rates are expressed in old currency (before 1851 to put it simply) as indicated in the title of the table you see. The official exchange rate was 1.4, that is 52.5 x 1.4 = 73.5 Rappen.

The total taxed by Switzerland is 193.5 rounded up to the nearest decimal I suppose.

As said before, without further information, I only have this explanation.

This may answer your questions.

Regards

Thank you for taking the time and your help Jimef, your answer makes sense to me.

BONSOIR / GOOD EVENING

Chers PhilaTejo et Jimef,

J'ai bien lu les explications (ci-dessus) mais...

Let's see (with the English language used until this moment) - comments below, inside the previous text, with red colour.

PhilaTejo a écrit:

Ok ... thank you!

Let me introduce another example. 

What do you think about the following letter sent from Portugal to Switzerland on 10.2.1855?
50 Réis, between 3/8 and 5/8 oz and 200 rapen postage due.

At the time 0,40 Fr was the French transit, in this case could be 0,80 or 1,20 .. also below the Swiss internal taxes at the time

Just have a look at the text with red colour, below.

Jimef a écrit:

After some clever calculations, I came to a conclusion.
I don't know if this one is the right one but I must be close to the truth.
It turns out that this period is one of the most complex in terms of pricing in Switzerland, as it is not yet standardised.
This is only valid if no other information contradicts my hypothesis.

Letter from 3/8oz to 5/8 oz (between 10 and 18 grams approximately), and I start from the high hypothesis of + 15 grams.

The Portuguese postage rate - 50 reis - was not valid from 3/8 to 5/8oz... it was valid for 3/8 to 5/8oz exclusively... i.e. just to 4/8oz (1).
This means that we are talking around an higher hypothesis of 14,3412g and not about something betweeen 15 and 18g (2)

120 cts for French transit (40 cts per 7.5 grams)

According to the data above reported the French transit rate would be only 80cts (40cts/7,5g).

[...]

Note - We know that errors (with the weights of the letters) could occur...

(1) - "Règlement Postal..." 4/May/1853, article 67º et Mapa nº2. Accessible ici:
https://legislacaoregia.parlamento.pt/V/1/28/4/p115
et ici:
https://legislacaoregia.parlamento.pt/V/1/28/4/p130
Ici (aussi) tout le règlement - May/1853:
https://net.fd.ulisboa.pt/legis/1853.htm
(2) - Equivalences - 1/8= +/-3,5853g

Hello,

after some research, I have just found the correct wording of this tax on the new information brought

ut(y)lyzateur a écrit:

This means that we are talking around an higher hypothesis of 14,3412g and not about something betweeen 15 and 18g (2)

What I didn't know until now is that there is a separate tax for letters in transit from another country in transit.

You can see the table below showing the taxations of foreign letters by Rayon (Kreis). The column that concerns us between Geneva and Fribourg is the 2nd (II. Kreis between 48 and 120 kms).

The tax rate is therefore 60 cts / 7.5 gr, i.e. 120 cts, to which we add the 80 cts for French transit, which gives us 200 cts.

And everything is in order...

Regards

Bonsoir Jimef,
Excellent finding, thank you so much for your help!
Best regards