Lettres à la Sardaigne via la France, après la convention de 1851

Bonjour,
Bonne année!

Trying to find an explanation why unpaid letters sent to Sardinia via France, after the French – Sardinia postal convention of 1851, would pay 1,40 at the destination.

According to the book Letter Mail from and to THE OLD ITALIAN STATES (1850-1870) by Mentaschi and Mathà, unpaid letters from countries such as Norway, Sweden, Russia, Portugal, delivered to Sardinia via France would pay 1,40. Unfortunately the authors don’t explain how this value is reached. Only point to the 1851 French-Sardinia convention. 

I have been trying to find this by reading the convention and the different décret but can’t reach this value.  Once again, likely, I am missing something.

From the French side we have the following official documents, all available at BnF website:
 
Bulletin des lois de la République française, nº354, Décret nº2737 de 23.01.1851, Loi relative à la Convention de Poste conclue, le 9 novembre 1850, entre la France et la Sardagne.
 
Bulletin des lois de la République française, nº379, Décret nº2872 de 14.03.1851, Décret relatif à la promulgation de la Convention ile poste conclue, le 9 novembre 1850, entre la France et la Sardaigne
 
Bulletin des lois de la République française, nº408, Décret nº3035 de 23.06.1851, Décret pour l'execution de la Convention de Poste conlcue, le 9 novembre 1850, entre la France et la Sardagne. 
 
According to decret 2872, art.16, letters from France to Sardinian or vice-versa, via land, would pay 0,50 up to 7,5g. Exception to those was the borders towns. Via sea, the value would increase to 0,70. Accounting would be 2/3 to France and 1/3 to Sardinian.

Le prix du port des lettres ordinaires adressées de l'un des deux Etats dans l'autre par la voie de terre (celles qui sont mentionnées dans l'article 18 ci-après exceptées) sera de cinquante centimes par lettre simple. Ce prix sera réparti entre les administrations des postes des deux pays dans la proportion de deux tiers au profit de l'administration des postes de France et d'un tiers au profit de l'administration des postes sardes. 


Art. 21 refers to transit mail to the countries listed in Table B.  Due to my lack of knowledge I cannot understand how do letters from countries such as Denmark, Sweden, Russia and Portugal, all listed in Table B, have to pay 1,40.  Portugal shows 0,52c. Denmark, Sweden and Russia shows 1,22c for transit fees that Sardinia had to pay to France.
 
 
 

Below an example of an unpaid letter from Portugal to Genoa in 1853, where it paid 1,40 at the destination.
The stamp of 25 réis is just to pay the first domestic rate.





Any idea how the value of 1,40 is reached?

Thank you once again for any help.

To add complexity to this problem, the postal convention from 1851 between Spain and Sardinian states the rates for unpaid letters from Spain would pay the following:

1.10 tutte le lettere diquella provenienza, e questa somma sarà ripartita come infra:
- Per transito francese (andata e ritorno) circa 70 centesimi
- Per porto sardo (andata e ritorno) circa 40 centesimi
TotaL - 1.10 Lira

Furthermore, Art. 8 of the 1851 Spanish-Sardinian convention states that Spain would deliver Portuguese letters to Franco-Spanien border without additional fees.

So, one can conclude that the letters from Portugal would be sent in closed mail between Spain and Sardinian. But then, at the Sardinian exchange office, how did the clerk reached the value of 1,40?

Bom dia, feliz ano novo,

pode ser uma questão de peso. A simple carta francesa ou da Sardenha pesa 7,5 gramas. A carta simple em português pesa 3/8 de onça, ou até 10,75 gramas. Entre 7,5 e 10,75 gramas, porte de Sardenha é o dobro.

A participação francesa é de 52 centavos, a participação da Sardenha é de 18 centavos (ver Tabela B, boletim 379, primeira coluna) / 7,5 gramas.

52 + 18 = 70 centavos / 7,5 gramas X 2 entre 7,5 e 10,75 gramas = 1,40 lira

D.

Well, I thought about that but doesn't seem so because an unpaid letter from Spain for 7,5g would pay 1,10 therefore, a letter from Portugal up to 7,5g could not pay 0,70 it had to pay at least 1,10 and indeed payed 1,40.

Bonjour,

After some research this is what I have at the moment:

1,10 – Simple rate from Portugal to Sardinia , according to the convention between Spain and Sardinia from 1851. Rate up to the Spanish/French border.
0,50 - Simple rate for a letter from Portugal to Sardinia, according to the convention between France and Sardinia from 1850. Rate up to the destination.
Total = 1,60 but Sardinia could not charge the inland rate twice so it had to deduct the inland rate of 0,20 from one of the parcels. This makes 1,40.

Does it make sense? what do you think?

Thank you

Or better, 

0,50 - Simple rate for a letter from Portugal to Sardinia, according to the convention between France and Sardinia from 1850. Rate up to the destination.
0,70 - (1,10 - 0,40) – Simple rate from Portugal to Sardinia , according to the convention between Spain and Sardinia from 1851. Rate up to the Spanish/French border. But from here it was deducted the Sardinia part which was 0,40.
0,20 - Sardinia Inland rate
Total = 1,40

Bom dia,

Is there a Badajoz marking on the back?

Otherwise, I do not think that the convention between Portugal and Spain should be taken into account, nor convention between Spain and Sardinia. Letters are sent in a closed bag between Portugal and the Sardinian border.

The accounting exchange takes place only between France and Sardinia, the Spanish transit must be free (like in the article 8 of the Spanish-Sardinian convention)

D.

Bonjour, 

My interpretation is that Spain made a postal convention with Sardinia in 1851 and the rate was 1,10 in closed mail (0,70 for France, 0,40 for Sardinia). 
For Spanish letters, the rate was valid until destination and was sent in closed mail via France. 
For Portuguese letters, the rate was only valid up to Spanish-French border. Which means, for the remaining part of the route, the postal convention between Sardinia and France from 1850 is applicable i.e., 0,50 for transit, for letters coming from Portugal.
So, Sardinia post office for a letter coming from Portugal charged the Spanish-French part which was 0,70 plus the French-Sardinia part which was 0,50 and finally the inland rate which was 0,20.
Letters were not sent in closed bag from Portugal up to Sardinia border. On letters to Sardinia, we normally have Badajoz marks and then is common to have the Spanish-French exchange office marking such as the one from La Junquera or St. Jean de Luz offices.

Bonjour, 

Quelqu'un a-t-il déjà vu une lettre d'Espagne à la Sardaigne en 1851?

Merci

PhilaTejo a écrit:

Bonjour, 

Quelqu'un a-t-il déjà vu une lettre d'Espagne à la Sardaigne en 1851?

Merci

J'ai une lettre de 1853 pour la période… Italie Portugal…
Mais je n'ai en scan ici que le recto verso et pas le contenu et la lettre est à travailler pour en comprendre tous les acheminements et fausses directions… Donc je pourrais dans quelques temps vous la présenter.
Pour référence, une lettre avant cette période en 1843, qui peut encadrer l'étude.
Cordialement

Bonjour,

Jolie lettre, merci du partage! N'hésitez pas à partager l'autre.

La période que je recherche est assez spécifique, c'est entre le 1er juillet 1851 (convention France / Sardaigne) et le 11 mars 1852 (convention Espagne / Sardaigne) pour comprendre combien une lettre d'Espagne paierait à la Sardaigne avant le 11 mars 1852 où le 1 , 10 taux a été introduit. Je n'ai toujours pas trouvé de réponse à cela.

(used google translate, sorry if any errors)